I hadnt even gotten halfway through the article before coming to the same conclusion. In other words slower bullet JHP more energy transferred more effective. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. Damage: 23. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. One thing to note is that for more most applications the military is restricted to FMJ loads. Millenials and their bias arguments. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Hollow points also create a larger temporary cavity. I have yet to see this. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/, http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/, https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/, Victim Uses Awareness And a Gun to End Armed Attacker, S8E5: The Battle over Gun Registration & Assault Weapon Ban Rages On, Man Disarmed And Shot With Own Handgun in Parking Lot, Finally a Holster for the SIRT Pocket Pistol, Watch This Before You Shoot Your Pistol!! I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. WebYes, definitely. Studies based on law enforcement shootings that are available to us show that only one or two solid torso hits can be expected at best. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. Glad you are doing well. Officially last year it was announced that DoD intends to move to hollowpoint ammunition with this new MHS gun (whichever one ends up winning the contract). Now thats hilarious. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. Now I am a fan of 45s. 45 stopping power! Liver problems can also be caused by a variety of factors that damage the liver, such as viruses, alcohol use and obesity. Bowman, I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Has anyone thought of learning how to control the .45 instead of wimping out after the first shot? and love a SA trigger. To each his own. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp I was in the military and was law enforcement. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? A 5 psi blast overpressure will rupture eardrums in about 1% of subjects, and a 45 psi overpressure will cause eardrum rupture in about 99% of all subjects. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. And the department is no small one. The objective of this study was to construct a When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. I know they dont keep records like this; but if you could count all the rounds fired in a battle, and how many kills were made by each caliber; would that not be a better indicator of the efficiency of the caliber. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. WebThe human body can survive relatively high blast overpressure without experiencing barotrauma. Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. It simply means that if you can shoot someone in the head, basically anything will do. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. Great article by the way. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. Sorry for the rant. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Let the Craftsman pick his tools! (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. Copyright 2023 0.177" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 300 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. For damage; within 50m against soft targets I want to say it goes 7.62 >.45 > 9mm. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. Practice, practice, practice. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. The bullet lands in the same place because the entire situation and milieu is what determines it. I meanwtf? That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. I like to study real world crime stats and self-defense incidents; and study hundreds of shootings every year. Obama wants us dead. JavaScript is disabled. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. Its too small. Why arent both so much better than .223? The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Shot placement was nearly identical. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! I thought I would never own a 9 mm. Heart shot, rolled it on the spot. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. There are four major handgun founding factors. I prefer 45 revolvers. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. Watch the .22 and the .223 tested on blocks of ballistics gelatin, a material that mimics human tissue. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. For those that think their their 45 is best, Ill shoot my 9mm and for those that think their 9mm is best, Ill shoot my 45. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. How many decades are we going to have this debate? Really late to the discussion. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. We had a good chuckle out of that one. A 1911 in 9MM? Type of ammo, stopping power, number of shots, shot placement, kick back, does the gun fit your hand, and whether your cheap crappy gun jams on you these are all part of the equation. Your shot placement will be perfect. Temporary cavity is often grossly overrated as a wounding factor, but has historically been one of the primary methods for measuring effectiveness. The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. In September 2014, LooserRounds posted an article titled FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. Theres enough money saved that Obuma can skim the money from the DOD and get his pay raise, retirement increase and anything else his little heart desires. When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. So dont ask. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. It did when it came to FMJ bullets. So you better have the biggest heaviest bullet going down range that you can possibly get. the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. So they fudge the data. unless the guy is coming at you with body armor, if you have more than three bullets in your gun you dont really have a lot to worry about. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. What will each round acco. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. Copyright 2023 Police1. I like all of them. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. I still prefer the .45. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. Think the title of this article is misleading. While 9mm is not as good at killing men as the 45 Auto, it is smaller, lighter, cheaper, easier to handle, and allows more opportunities to miss the target.. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. Riley, love your artical. But thats me. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. If it works for our troops no matter where it is made thats the one we want. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. I like them all! 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? This can cause more than embarrassment. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. The .50 9mm will not drop a target unless you hit the CNS.a buddy of mine took a 9mm straight through the head through his eyeball from about 20 yards away. .45 ACP 10 Round Magazine mobility debuff removed, and .45 ACP 17 Round Magazine mobility increased from 96% to 98%. I preferred carrying them before things went bad for me. thanks for your time, greg. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. Open the tools menu in your browser. 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. What type of bullet is being fired? Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. Everyone should be mocking the .223 as a pea shooter. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. Please dont send me any hate mail. That changed for me Dec of 2017. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. But good luck with and please enjoy the new Glock! WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. All this newer powder and more efficient bullets. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. I have shot many different calibers. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. That has been the best comment so far. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. An entrance wound is surrounded by a reddish-brown area of abraded skin, known as the abrasion ring, and small amounts of blood escape through. Every round has its purpose. The beautiful country in south east Asia. He was a deputy sheriff. All rights reserved. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. It goes in a like a nail.. Well, depends on whom you ask. Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy Wellcome L0024127.jpg 1,080 1,787; 799 KB. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. However, from close enough range you could manage. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. This is exactly what I said above. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets.
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